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      CommentAuthorwaderockett
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2013 edited
     
    The upcoming See Page XX (due out this week) will feature Paul Fanning's Stalwart class, which enables players to create mythical heroes along the lines of Hercules, Achilles, Beowulf or Mordred -- martial PCs with superhuman capabilities. We'll use this thread to discuss the class.
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      CommentAuthorharen
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2013
     
    Ohhh, I can't wait!
    • CommentAuthorEarthorn
    • CommentTimeNov 19th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: harenOhhh, I can't wait!


    Thanks, Haren! I can't wait for peoples (ideally) enthusiastic or constructive reactions after reading it. I think/hope a lot of people will have fun with this one!
    • CommentAuthorAzhmodai
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2013 edited
     
    There appears to be an error in the Total Hit Points column of the level progression chart. According to the stats table, Hit Points should be (7 + Con mod) x Level modifier. The level progression chart shows them as (8 + Con mod) x Level modifier, which would also render the COLOSSAL STAMINA talent less than useful.

    Aside from that small mistake, I like this class a lot for the flavor of the mythical hero.
    • CommentAuthorEarthorn
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: AzhmodaiThere appears to be an error in the Total Hit Points column of the level progression chart. According to the stats table, Hit Points should be (7 + Con mod) x Level modifier. The level progression chart shows them as (8 + Con mod) x Level modifier, which would also render the COLOSSAL STAMINA talent less than useful.

    Aside from that small mistake, I like this class a lot for the flavor of the mythical hero.


    Glad you like it, Azhmodai! This is my favorite 13th Age creation so far, and I'm glad the flavor comes across in the class details.

    And you are correct: the chart is wrong, base hit points are 7.
    • CommentAuthormuneshige
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2013
     
    I think this class really needs to be put side-by-side with the Barbarian to see where its Strengths and Weaknesses are. This looks to be to be very much an outright replacement for the Barbarian much as Vangard is an outright replacement for the Fighter.

    A class that is so superior to an existing class to the point that the existing class is rendered comparatively worthless is not a good addition. But I have not analyzed them closely, it is just my first impression.
    • CommentAuthorEarthorn
    • CommentTimeNov 30th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: muneshigeI think this class really needs to be put side-by-side with the Barbarian to see where its Strengths and Weaknesses are. This looks to be to be very much an outright replacement for the Barbarian much as Vangard is an outright replacement for the Fighter.

    A class that is so superior to an existing class to the point that the existing class is rendered comparatively worthless is not a good addition. But I have not analyzed them closely, it is just my first impression.


    Thanks for the feedback, and I'm sorry my class left a bad first impression with you. It is most definitely not intended as an outright replacement for the Barbarian. To me, it is closest to Fighter or even Paladin, though it does things thematically and mechanically that neither of those classes do. I suppose Stalwart is similar to Barbarian in AC, HP, and recoveries, as are Fighters are to Paladins, Wizards to Sorcerers, Bards to Clerics...

    As for the Barbarian's strengths, off the top of my head: a Barbarian player (who is worried about optimization) who is raging-- and they should be raging in almost any difficult round, between raging when a hard fight starts and picking up rage when the escalation die is high enough by taking the adventurer feat-- will be doing roughly twice as much damage as a Stalwart who isn't using their powers (and their powers don't add THAT much damage round-to-round). By second level, the smart Barbarian player could be guaranteeing themself a free recovery almost every battle, by taking Unstoppable and it's adventurer feat.

    I honestly don't think the Stalwart can match that level of accuracy/damage and free HP every fight. They have higher spikes and more versatility than the Barbarian, however.

    Now, if you mean they are a bad class because they are more attractive than a Barbarian because of options rather than power, it seems the complaint is about the simplicity of the Barbarian (and said simplicity might not be for everyone).
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      CommentAuthorharen
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2013
     
    I want to see it in play, but my thoughts on looking at it (after mulling it over) are positive!
    • CommentAuthorEarthorn
    • CommentTimeDec 1st 2013
     
    Posted By: harenI want to see it in play, but my thoughts on looking at it (after mulling it over) are positive!


    Awesome! Let us know your impressions of the Stalwart in play (whenever that is).

    Anything about the class stand out to you as particularly good (or disappointing)?
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      CommentAuthorharen
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2013
     
    I think the lack of need for weapons, to be honest. It feels very Heracles, Samson, etc... I like the idea of someone who almost is HELD BACK by using weapons, and while this doesn't go that far... I could see it.
    • CommentAuthorEarthorn
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2013
     
    Posted By: harenI think the lack of need for weapons, to be honest. It feels very Heracles, Samson, etc... I like the idea of someone who almost is HELD BACK by using weapons, and while this doesn't go that far... I could see it.


    That's exactly the sweet spot I was aiming for-- all Stalwarts are more dangerous than most adventurers when unarmed, though they could still benefit from a sword or shield. However, if you choose to take powers such as Batter and Catapult Throw, you really are at your most powerful using your bare hands.
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      CommentAuthorharen
    • CommentTimeDec 2nd 2013
     
    Which I liked! :)
    • CommentAuthorraleel
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2013
     
    LEGION OF ONE

    When you are hit by an attack from an enemy with fewer hit points than you, reduce that attacks damage by your level.


    Did you intend to make them effectively immune to mooks?
    • CommentAuthorEarthorn
    • CommentTimeDec 3rd 2013
     
    Posted By: raleelLEGION OF ONE

    When you are hit by an attack from an enemy with fewer hit points than you, reduce that attacks damage by your level.


    Did you intend to make them effectively immune to mooks?


    How much damage do you think mooks do?

    (Hint: it's a lot more than their level)

    Sarcasm off: yes, they will be nearly immune to mooks that are many levels lower than them. And a high-ac paladin will be nearly unhittable (when their ac is being targeted) by ANYONE several levels lower. And the sorcerer with hands of flame will be destroying several much-lower-level mooks at-will. I don't see the problem.
  1.  
    Posted By: muneshigeI think this class really needs to be put side-by-side with the Barbarian to see where its Strengths and Weaknesses are. This looks to be to be very much an outright replacement for the Barbarian much as Vangard is an outright replacement for the Fighter.

    A class that is so superior to an existing class to the point that the existing class is rendered comparatively worthless is not a good addition. But I have not analyzed them closely, it is just my first impression.


    Just as a side note (as this is a thread about the Stalwart, not the Vanguard), but I did indeed build the Vanguard while constantly referencing the Fighter; they have different strengths and weaknesses, and the Vanguard is designed to be a more active class with resource management - a complex Fighter-type, essentially. I am currently content that a Fighter and a Vanguard next to each other will not (assuming sane choices of Techniques and Manouevers) leave either feeling particularly outclassed at what they choose to be good at.

    And with that I'll turn to talking about Earthorn's Stalwart since, y'know, thread topic and all :D I haven't had a good read through of the Stalwart yet, although I was interested to see the concept - the mighty ancient-myth hero is quite a cool notion for a class niche, I have to say. The one thing that has struck me as odd so far - Earthorn, why's it called the Stalwart specifically? The name seems like it'd better suit a defender-style class, whereas this one kinda cries out for a larger-than-life mighty name befitting of Hercules - Hero, Champion, that kinda thing (obviously not Champion in this case since that's already used in the ACE tiers, but you get the idea :) ).
  2.  
    Glad you like it, Azhmodai! This is my favorite 13th Age creation so far, and I'm glad the flavor comes across in the class details.






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    • CommentAuthorEarthorn
    • CommentTimeDec 7th 2013
     
    Posted By: Acrozatarim


    And with that I'll turn to talking about Earthorn's Stalwart since, y'know, thread topic and all :D I haven't had a good read through of the Stalwart yet, although I was interested to see the concept - the mighty ancient-myth hero is quite a cool notion for a class niche, I have to say. The one thing that has struck me as odd so far - Earthorn, why's it called the Stalwart specifically? The name seems like it'd better suit a defender-style class, whereas this one kinda cries out for a larger-than-life mighty name befitting of Hercules - Hero, Champion, that kinda thing (obviously not Champion in this case since that's already used in the ACE tiers, but you get the idea :) ).


    I actually like "champion" as a name for the class, but the whole "champion tier" thing ruled it out.
    And I found "hero" too all-encompassing and odd in it's modern usage-- somehow subtly implying that characters who weren't of the "hero" class weren't heroes.

    I do think the Stalwart class is potentially "defendery" enough to live up to the name (a Stalwart gets more powerful when you hit them, after all), and I am amused (given the class' strong ties to Icons) by the word "stalwart" possibly meaning a champion of a political party or cause.